@arzachel @mar77i ie you don't get rid of evidence just because you don't want to believe it exists

@jeffcliff @arzachel @mar77i I didn't read the link, but I've repeatedly run into people that think that the PCR test for the virus is the only method of detecting the virus we have, and so it must have never been isolated. But there are several scientific papers about the virus having been isolated.

@Moon @jeffcliff @arzachel So you’re going to trust the people who make the fancy graphs like in jeff’s link with your health decisions?

@mar77i @Moon @arzachel No. You shouldn't trust them. You should trust *the data*.

@jeffcliff @Moon @arzachel Okay, are you going to trust me once we’re supposed to believe Earth is being contacted by aliens?

I wish I was kidding.

@mar77i @Moon @arzachel If you provide easily verifiable evidence produced by thousands of independent entities around the world probably

@mar77i @arzachel @jeffcliff My position is that multiple labs in different countries have said they've isolated and sequenced the virus, and are using each others' data, so it's not fake because that would have to have taken impractical levels of deception and coordination to have pulled off. We can argue about if any particular policy for managing the virus is good or bad, but I'm confident that the virus is real and sequenced.

@mar77i @arzachel *a lot* of different independent labs. This isn't just one or two we're talking. This includes labs that are within blocks of where I'm sitting right now. Multiple labs.

@Moon @mar77i @arzachel @jeffcliff

Totally - the ideas that the virus hasn't been sequenced or hasn't been cultured is mostly politically motivated disinformation, though there are some genuine weird science people who've set such a high bar for verifying a culture that the virus would practically have to stand up in the flask and do a hula dance for them before they'd accept it. But there are always some like that. Even Kary Mullis, the inventor of PCR, went wacko after a certain point. Which is being much exploited by the disinformationists in old video clips where he's still seen denying the validity of the HIV test.

@Moon @mar77i @jeffcliff lots of jiggery-pokery with redefining “isolation”: http://drug-dissolution-testing.com/blog/files/no-isolated-virus.pdf

@arzachel @mar77i @jeffcliff this guy is handwaving, first he says you can't isolate then says that dna evidence must be fake because you can't isolate. we have its entire dna sequenced and studied for over a year now so he's just wrong.

@Moon @arzachel @jeffcliff Hanlon’s razor still applies.

And if you want to argue 1919 numbers, this “event”, using the orders of magnitude from back then, which are per million capita, there’s barely even a blip on the map.

@Moon @mar77i @jeffcliff No, he’s saying that— just like with “pandemic” & “herd immunity”— the definition of “isolated” has been quietly altered. Anyway, take it up with him here: https://www.linkedin.com/posts/saeed-qureshi-3664a18_virus-isolate-vs-isolated-virus-an-activity-6751551896345022464-FHEb

@arzachel @mar77i @jeffcliff he is arguing that we can't have isolated the coronavirus because we've never isolated the reference coronavirus that they're being compared to. He is going beyond saying we haven't isolated COVID-19 and is saying we've never isolated any coronaviruses. He's apparently arguing that all virology is a hoax and not just COVID-19.

@Moon @arzachel @jeffcliff @mar77i koch's postulates still unproven to this day though

@hakui @arzachel @jeffcliff @mar77i I didn't think it ever applied to viruses but I can't speak further than that on the topic.

@hakui @Moon @arzachel @mar77i koch's postulates didn't exist in a universe with HeLa

@hakui @arzachel @mar77i ie Koch, if he still existed, would be fine with our use of HeLa for the equivalent purposes

@jeffcliff @arzachel @mar77i cancer cells don't behave the same way as normal cells in an individual

@hakui @arzachel @mar77i not exactly but they do when it comes to an ACE2 grabbing @covid19

@jeffcliff @arzachel @covid19 @mar77i how do you know that's what happens in normal cells

@hakui @arzachel @covid19 @mar77i that's what other kinds of observation studies are for

But *at the very least* we know that all human bodies contain tumours and tumours are suceptible.

@jeffcliff @arzachel @covid19 @mar77i we also know that human bodies have an immune system that takes care of pathogens, which a bunch of cancer cells in a petri dish doesn't have

@hakui @arzachel @covid19 @mar77i ie HeLa *is* human. If @covid19 *just* infected cancerous cells that would be one thing (and a damn miracle). It doesn't.

@jeffcliff @arzachel @covid19 @mar77i normal humans aren't just clumps of tumors though

@hakui @arzachel @covid19 @mar77i that's like saying "all humans aren't lungs so therefor if something infects the lungs we shouldn't believe it's an infectious pathogen because we can't know what happens when it passes past the lungs"

@jeffcliff @arzachel @covid19 @mar77i back during the spanish flu they made a bunch of healthy people breathe in the exhaled air from patients. nobody caught anything

@hakui @arzachel @covid19 @mar77i [[citation needed]]

@jeffcliff @arzachel @covid19 @mar77i MJ Rosenau, "Experiments to Determine Mode of Spread of Influenza", Journal of the American Medical Association 73, no. 5: 311-313

@hakui @arzachel @covid19 @mar77i ugh 30$ for a 100 year old pdf. scihub to the rescue

@jeffcliff @hakui @arzachel @covid19 Exactly. Could we discuss the fact that this still, after all, might be little more than maybe not quite, but largely still seems like a common cold?

@mar77i @jeffcliff @arzachel @covid19 which might be due to a weakened immune system from stress, diet, or other factors

@hakui @mar77i @arzachel @covid19 That is not what koch's postulates are about. They are purely about proving infectiousness. Which HeLa cells do.

@hakui @arzachel @covid19 @mar77i Now it's fair to say that there's more than Koch needed to comfirm what it actually does in the presence of a healthy immune system - that's what observation studies are for. Studies that have been done, and replicated all over

@jeffcliff @arzachel @covid19 @mar77i infecting cancer cells by injecting stuff into them doesn't mean the same stuff would infect a person in real life

@mar77i @arzachel @covid19 @hakui it should, given it's also a coronavirus.

@mar77i @arzachel @covid19 @hakui ie it's a branch of the cold family that can also cause nerve damage/kill you in non trivial %s

@Moon @mar77i @jeffcliff http://www.drug-dissolution-testing.com/?p=3621